5400 vs 5200 motor

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How is it that the 5200 has a staggering 410n^2/w of motor force yet its big brother, the 5400 only has 180n^2/watt?

If I understand this correctly, the 5200 motor will do about twice as much with each watt its given.

I must be missing something, its late I should probably go to sleep but I cant stop thinking about car audio!

Also I saw claims that the tantric shd motor was stronger than the 5200, how true is this?.. anyone have the thiele smalls on the shd or know its motors n^2/w?

 
How is it that the 5200 has a staggering 410n^2/w of motor force yet its big brother, the 5400 only has 180n^2/watt?
If I understand this correctly, the 5200 motor will do about twice as much with each watt its given.

I must be missing something, its late I should probably go to sleep but I cant stop thinking about car audio!

Also I saw claims that the tantric shd motor was stronger than the 5200, how true is this?.. anyone have the thiele smalls on the shd or know its motors n^2/w?
Because the 5200 was built to be the strongest motor on the planet when it was released. The 5400 still has a very strong motor and generally needs a small box and will still play lower than 99% of subs on the market, and does it with a flat response when tuned low. You already messed with the 5200 and saw what it's frequency response looked like. Go look up the 5400's specs and you'll see what I mean. It can play very low, very flat in small boxes. The 5400 also has copper in the motor to lower inductance based distortion. The inductance of the 5400 is less than 1/3 the inductance of the 5200, which means it can play higher frequencies with less distortion. If you like to cross your subs high this is a great thing and really lowers distortion. Lastly, the 5400 fits the LMS coil which greatly lowers BL related distortion. If your into SQ the 5400 crushes the 5200 in every way. The 5200 is really more of an SPL driver when used in a car app, unless you put it into a sealed box. It has more motor than you need for any kind of a SQ app ported in a car and doesn't have the fancier distortion lowering components (LMS Coil and shorting rings) that you find a 5400.

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Also about the 2x the output on the same power. If you look at how subwoofer's actually work, you'll see that isn't the case. The stronger motor does make it more "effecient", but at the expense of low end output. What you end up with is a driver with high effeciency, that begins to fall slowly, at a high frequency. The lower strength 5400 motor does the opposite, starts weaker, but decreases very little as it goes lower until eventually falling very rapidly. In a sealed box for each, you'd need around 2x the box size for the 5400, but still a small box. However, when you do this the effeciency difference will all be above 100hz on paper anyway, where you normally use a sub in a car below that, they will be very close. Then when you factor in indutance, you realize they are probably in truth pretty close higher up, but the 5400 has less distortion AND more capability down low due to the higher xmax. Look at these graphs and they show what I mean.

Here is 5200, you can see it's 3b down by 113hz! However it falls very slowly so that you still have good output through the bass region.

7321e9b7_vbattach75845.gif


Here is the 5400, you can see it's lowered output, especially above 100hz and going higher, but again I don't beleive this factors in inductance, nor will it show how they sound that high, the 5400 will be cleaner up there if you used it that high. You can see how it falls very slowly as you go lower in frequency until 20hz where it finally begins to really drop off, still more flat overall, again this is in 2x the box size, but the 5200 has such a strong motor, box size hardly makes a difference it's ALL motor. The extra motor force on the 5200 really only does 2 things. 1. You can use it in a retard small box. 2. It's useless in a ported box unless you want pure SPL. 5400 is a little more well balanced. It does well sealed or ported more or less and still needs a small box, just not AS small.

6618c7f2_vbattach75846.gif


As far as tantric goes, I have no idea. They stole the baskets off of TC sounds, whether they stole a motor too and improved upon it IDK (I'm half joking here). Only way to know for sure would be to get them both on a klippel, the 5200 has been put on one and it's specs are pretty well known. The Tantric is a strong motor I'm sure as it's designed as an SPL driver, stronger, who knows? To find actual motor strength the formula is BL^2/RE. The 5200 is 410 Netwons/watt, which is pretty beefy. To put it into perspective the DDZ and Warden which have both been touted as the strongest motor ever, by DD nuthuggers and Incriminator Audio itself, only clocked in at 310ish for both units when Jacob actually tested them.. Even my 21 which is a neo magnet with a 6inch coil is only around 300.. (although it's NOT an SPL driver per say, big coils like that just make for strong *** motor force without a lot of work lol)

 
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Because the 5200 was built to be the strongest motor on the planet when it was released. The 5400 still has a very strong motor and generally needs a small box and will still play lower than 99% of subs on the market, and does it with a flat response when tuned low. You already messed with the 5200 and saw what it's frequency response looked like. Go look up the 5400's specs and you'll see what I mean. It can play very low, very flat in small boxes. The 5400 also has copper in the motor to lower inductance based distortion. The inductance of the 5400 is less than 1/3 the inductance of the 5200, which means it can play higher frequencies with less distortion. If you like to cross your subs high this is a great thing and really lowers distortion. Lastly, the 5400 fits the LMS coil which greatly lowers BL related distortion. If your into SQ the 5400 crushes the 5200 in every way. The 5200 is really more of an SPL driver when used in a car app, unless you put it into a sealed box. It has more motor than you need for any kind of a SQ app ported in a car and doesn't have the fancier distortion lowering components (LMS Coil and shorting rings) that you find a 5400.r

Also about the 2x the output on the same power. If you look at how subwoofer's actually work, you'll see that isn't the case. The stronger motor does make it more "effecient", but at the expense of low end output. What you end up with is a driver with high effeciency, that begins to fall slowly, at a high frequency. The lower strength 5400 motor does the opposite, starts weaker, but decreases very little as it goes lower until eventually falling very rapidly. In a sealed box for each, you'd need around 2x the box size for the 5400, but still a small box. However, when you do this the effeciency difference will all be above 100hz on paper anyway, where you normally use a sub in a car below that, they will be very close. Then when you factor in indutance, you realize they are probably in truth pretty close higher up, but the 5400 has less distortion AND more capability down low due to the higher xmax. Look at these graphs and they show what I mean.

Here is 5200, you can see it's 3b down by 113hz! However it falls very slowly so that you still have good output through the bass region.

7321e9b7_vbattach75845.gif


Here is the 5400, you can see it's lowered output, especially above 100hz and going higher, but again I don't beleive this factors in inductance, nor will it show how they sound that high, the 5400 will be cleaner up there if you used it that high. You can see how it falls very slowly as you go lower in frequency until 20hz where it finally begins to really drop off, still more flat overall, again this is in 2x the box size, but the 5200 has such a strong motor, box size hardly makes a difference it's ALL motor. The extra motor force on the 5200 really only does 2 things. 1. You can use it in a retard small box. 2. It's useless in a ported box unless you want pure SPL. 5400 is a little more well balanced. It does well sealed or ported more or less and still needs a small box, just not AS small.

6618c7f2_vbattach75846.gif


As far as tantric goes, I have no idea. They stole the baskets off of TC sounds, whether they stole a motor too and improved upon it IDK (I'm half joking here). Only way to know for sure would be to get them both on a klippel, the 5200 has been put on one and it's specs are pretty well known. The Tantric is a strong motor I'm sure as it's designed as an SPL driver, stronger, who knows? To find actual motor strength the formula is BL^2/RE. The 5200 is 410 Netwons/watt, which is pretty beefy. To put it into perspective the DDZ and Warden which have both been touted as the strongest motor ever, by DD nuthuggers and Incriminator Audio itself, only clocked in at 310ish for both units when Jacob actually tested them.. Even my 21 which is a neo magnet with a 6inch coil is only around 300.. (although it's NOT an SPL driver per say, big coils like that just make for strong *** motor force without a lot of work lol)
Wow seriously thank you for such a great response. It leads me to a few more questions though of coarse. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

Would an lms coil work in a 5200 motor?

Is it possible to add a shorting ring?

Is it possible to make this motor have a flat response with the right recone?.. extra spiders, stiffer surround, more mms?

 
Wow seriously thank you for such a great response. It leads me to a few more questions though of coarse. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif
Would an lms coil work in a 5200 motor?

Is it possible to add a shorting ring?

Is it possible to make this motor have a flat response with the right recone?.. extra spiders, stiffer surround, more mms?
The LMS coil is built around the motor so no you couldn't. The idea of the LMS coil is to decrease the gap thickness at certain points as the coil travels by adding extra coil layers at certain points along the coil to flatten the BL curve as the coil moves back and forth. This requires the coil to be built as a "pair" with the motor, if that makes sense. Shorting rings could be utlilized I suppose, but they are pretty expensive as good ones are pure copper, REALLY good ones are silver, cheapest is aluminum, but they all work. Also the positioing on the pole peice is critical, so unless who ever builds it has access to a klippel tester (unlikely), they aren't likely to be nearly as effective as you'd hope. As far as making the motor a bit more flat for a ported enclosure, I'm sure it could be done, but you'd be looking at a very stiff suspension at that point, probably a bit noisy at that point as well. Not really the intended goal of the motor to begin with, you'd kind of be fighting it. I'm sure PSI could do something more daily friendly than the stock version if you asked them to.

To be honest, your running about thing backwards, IMHO. If you want to find the right sub, figure out what kind of response you want THEN find or build a woofer that can do that in the space you have available. If you have to custom build, that's fine, if you can do it off the shelf, even better. (off the shelf woofers are cheaper all things equal and can be repaired 10x easier and more cheaply) That's how you end up happy, it's not about getting the "best sub". It's about getting the "best response" in the box size you can fit! That's the key distinction that many people miss. It's like asking for the best car. Some would say a ferrari or a lambo, but what if you intended usage was off roading. Without the environment coming into play, you can quote HP and 0-60 all day and not end up thinking about a jeep lol.

For all the hype I've given the 5400, if your only looking for bass above 30hz and have plenty of room for a box and tend to be abusive power wise, it'd be a HORRIBLE waste of money. Plenty of subs can hang with it/beat it all day above 30hz and are much more abuse tolerant, some even have very low distortion overall to boot. The LMS is king if you want

 
The LMS coil is built around the motor so no you couldn't. The idea of the LMS coil is to decrease the gap thickness at certain points as the coil travels by adding extra coil layers at certain points along the coil to flatten the BL curve as the coil moves back and forth. This requires the coil to be built as a "pair" with the motor, if that makes sense. Shorting rings could be utlilized I suppose, but they are pretty expensive as good ones are pure copper, REALLY good ones are silver, cheapest is aluminum, but they all work. Also the positioing on the pole peice is critical, so unless who ever builds it has access to a klippel tester (unlikely), they aren't likely to be nearly as effective as you'd hope. As far as making the motor a bit more flat for a ported enclosure, I'm sure it could be done, but you'd be looking at a very stiff suspension at that point, probably a bit noisy at that point as well. Not really the intended goal of the motor to begin with, you'd kind of be fighting it. I'm sure PSI could do something more daily friendly than the stock version if you asked them to.
To be honest, your running about thing backwards, IMHO. If you want to find the right sub, figure out what kind of response you want THEN find or build a woofer that can do that in the space you have available. If you have to custom build, that's fine, if you can do it off the shelf, even better. (off the shelf woofers are cheaper all things equal and can be repaired 10x easier and more cheaply) That's how you end up happy, it's not about getting the "best sub". It's about getting the "best response" in the box size you can fit! That's the key distinction that many people miss. It's like asking for the best car. Some would say a ferrari or a lambo, but what if you intended usage was off roading. Without the environment coming into play, you can quote HP and 0-60 all day and not end up thinking about a jeep lol.

For all the hype I've given the 5400, if your only looking for bass above 30hz and have plenty of room for a box and tend to be abusive power wise, it'd be a HORRIBLE waste of money. Plenty of subs can hang with it/beat it all day above 30hz and are much more abuse tolerant, some even have very low distortion overall to boot. The LMS is king if you want

Do you know if SPL or PSI have a klippel?

My reasoning behind going with a powerful woofer instead of going for the woofer most suited for my car is because I don't think I will be driving this car for too much longer.. its a Volvo s80 with about 150,000miles.. so I figured I would get a powerful motored sub and recone it in the future when I get a new car and know how much room I have to work with. I know this is an odd approach, but I am getting a stock 5200 and plan to run it for awhile with a 15" psi PR in 3.7 cubes for awhile. I want to adjust tunings and see how it affects the sound, figure out just what it is that im looking for. Its hard to describe, but each system I have heard has slight differences obviously and I love the really explosive low toned bass. Some systems don't produce the sound at all while others seem like they have that explosive bass almost drone in the background while hitting other notes. Im not the best at describing things, but I hope you understand lol.. anyway would what I describe be caused by a lower fs subwoofer or a lower tuned box?(maybe a combo?).. anyway that's kindof what im trying to see with this setup, with a fs of 22 and a low tuned box, maybe I will get that drone rumbly deep bass im looking for lol

Nice analogy by the way, let me try to relate to it haha... I don't know what the environment is, so I am buying a powerful engine on the best chassis and running it with what comes with it temporarily. I know its not the most versatile, but if I can make it work then once I know the environment, I will get the right suspension and tires to suit my needs.

I found the option to add mass to the drivers cone in winisd, and adding weight made the response of the driver so much better.

Is adding 100g-1000g to a cone possible?.. the response really just gets better the more mass added, im sure there is some downside though..

Are there any other changes that happen when adding mass? lower fs, less sensitivity, higher qts?
 
Do you know if SPL or PSI have a klippel?
My reasoning behind going with a powerful woofer instead of going for the woofer most suited for my car is because I don't think I will be driving this car for too much longer.. its a Volvo s80 with about 150,000miles.. so I figured I would get a powerful motored sub and recone it in the future when I get a new car and know how much room I have to work with. I know this is an odd approach, but I am getting a stock 5200 and plan to run it for awhile with a 15" psi PR in 3.7 cubes for awhile. I want to adjust tunings and see how it affects the sound, figure out just what it is that im looking for. Its hard to describe, but each system I have heard has slight differences obviously and I love the really explosive low toned bass. Some systems don't produce the sound at all while others seem like they have that explosive bass almost drone in the background while hitting other notes. Im not the best at describing things, but I hope you understand lol.. anyway would what I describe be caused by a lower fs subwoofer or a lower tuned box?(maybe a combo?).. anyway that's kindof what im trying to see with this setup, with a fs of 22 and a low tuned box, maybe I will get that drone rumbly deep bass im looking for lol

Nice analogy by the way, let me try to relate to it haha... I don't know what the environment is, so I am buying a powerful engine on the best chassis and running it with what comes with it temporarily. I know its not the most versatile, but if I can make it work then once I know the environment, I will get the right suspension and tires to suit my needs.

I found the option to add mass to the drivers cone in winisd, and adding weight made the response of the driver so much better.

Is adding 100g-1000g to a cone possible?.. the response really just gets better the more mass added, im sure there is some downside though..

Are there any other changes that happen when adding mass? lower fs, less sensitivity, higher qts?
Yeah your dropping sensativity and is NOT the way to go about things, again, shoot for a sub that does what you want in a box you can fit. What you want, is actually what I have lol. I'm using a 21 in around 9 cubes right now. I'm actually not a huge fan of it ATM, I want to do a new box, but I bet you'd love it. Any song you run, destroys the lows. Compared to what I typically listen to, it's actually too deep every song sounds super deep, although it is fun being able to play chopped and screwed music just as loud as normal music, even put on slowed, the lowest note is easy.. I'm also using passives and they will help in your goals as you won't fight for airspace to get the airspace and low tuning combo you need.

My box has a pretty hard peak down low along with some cabin gain in the 25hz area making things just silly. I mostly built the box to crush lows just to see what I though of it since i had the room. I've never not had a trunk car so I'd never had the shot to go full retard below 30hz... Given that you said that, maybe a peaky box in the low 30's even high 20's with a 5200 might be up your alley. Even if it's not you can always sell it as even a TC 5200 motor has more value than some subs lol. The 5200 can respond like by sub in a very reasonable sized ported box, minus the huge port you won't need since you have passives.

That 5200 is going to need quite a bit of passive radiation though, have you bought passives yet? What size are you planning and what vehicle/size restraints do you have?

 
Yeah your dropping sensativity and is NOT the way to go about things, again, shoot for a sub that does what you want in a box you can fit. What you want, is actually what I have lol. I'm using a 21 in around 9 cubes right now. I'm actually not a huge fan of it ATM, I want to do a new box, but I bet you'd love it. Any song you run, destroys the lows. Compared to what I typically listen to, it's actually too deep every song sounds super deep, although it is fun being able to play chopped and screwed music just as loud as normal music, even put on slowed, the lowest note is easy.. I'm also using passives and they will help in your goals as you won't fight for airspace to get the airspace and low tuning combo you need.
My box has a pretty hard peak down low along with some cabin gain in the 25hz area making things just silly. I mostly built the box to crush lows just to see what I though of it since i had the room. I've never not had a trunk car so I'd never had the shot to go full retard below 30hz... Given that you said that, maybe a peaky box in the low 30's even high 20's with a 5200 might be up your alley. Even if it's not you can always sell it as even a TC 5200 motor has more value than some subs lol. The 5200 can respond like by sub in a very reasonable sized ported box, minus the huge port you won't need since you have passives.

That 5200 is going to need quite a bit of passive radiation though, have you bought passives yet? What size are you planning and what vehicle/size restraints do you have?
The max size box I can fit in my car is a 4.1 cube. The PR I was planning on running is PSI 15" passive radiator

I could either run that one 15 " PR, or two 12" PRs back to back... although I cant find any difference in adding more PRs in winisd.. although I am noob at it.

Can you tell me the problems one could encounter by not having enough passive radiation?

Would one 15" tc and one 15" pr run into any of these problems?

 
Just buy the damned 5200 already and start making some sawdust.
Im not debating buy it haha, that's already in motion.. just looking for some input on what to do as far as reconing options and running passives..

A lot of good info is in this thread, im sure other people have similar questions that may have been answered.

 
As far as tantric goes, I have no idea. They stole the baskets off of TC sounds, whether they stole a motor too and improved upon it IDK (I'm half joking here). Only way to know for sure would be to get them both on a klippel, the 5200 has been put on one and it's specs are pretty well known. The Tantric is a strong motor I'm sure as it's designed as an SPL driver, stronger, who knows? To find actual motor strength the formula is BL^2/RE. The 5200 is 410 Netwons/watt, which is pretty beefy. To put it into perspective the DDZ and Warden which have both been touted as the strongest motor ever, by DD nuthuggers and Incriminator Audio itself, only clocked in at 310ish for both units when Jacob actually tested them.. Even my 21 which is a neo magnet with a 6inch coil is only around 300.. (although it's NOT an SPL driver per say, big coils like that just make for strong *** motor force without a lot of work lol)
I believe murph worked for T3. The motor is an "improved" version of the TSNS.

 
front_back_tc5200_pr.png


I can have one psi 15" PR on the front

or

one 12" psi or 15" TC PR on front and back of the box.

Idk the benefits of any of these options

 
As one that just installed a LMS 5400 in my subwoofer end table this weekend for my home theater...you do realize this is a 90+ lb monster. I most certainly remember trying to man handle it last night when I installed it. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif I only say that because with a box and that sub, you are looking at something heavy that will take away performance and gas mileage of your car. And as already stated, the LMS 5400 is way overkill for most music, which is greater than 30 Hz. That sub is a home theater beast because of its sub-20 Hz performance and doesn't distinguish itself greatly over 20 Hz other than being a very accurate, clean, low distortion sub.

From the home theater crowd, one of the subs thrown around for greater than 20 Hz usage is a JBL pro audio sub, the JBL 2242H (used on eBay). Since it is pro audio, it has high sensitivity and is meant to be played loud. That might be something you want to look into if you really want a lot of output.

 
front_back_tc5200_pr.png

I can have one psi 15" PR on the front

or

one 12" psi or 15" TC PR on front and back of the box.

Idk the benefits of any of these options
Treat a PR like a port. They need to be on the same or adjacent planes. Subs up, PRs back, subs and PR back, etc.

 
Treat a PR like a port. They need to be on the same or adjacent planes. Subs up, PRs back, subs and PR back, etc.
Ok so having one pr on front and one on the back isn't an option?.. leaving my best option the PSI 15" pr on the front. hmm

 
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