Beginner Build

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

Thanks for more good info //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif
At this rate, we might just decipher the ultimate $500 build, a definitive example for other people... at least until technology progresses to a completely different realm of quality vs pricing.

This is good info, but remember this is a beginner build. If comparing it to something, it should be compared to factory systems or the people who go to Wal-Mart and buy a set of Sony Xplods and call it a day, not that professional builds shouldn't be examined and analyzed, which is what I was doing before checking in here. It seems this setup will be better than 99% of cars on the road no matter what. The "cheap" crossovers and equalizers seem to go far beyond what a factory system provides. If something 1/10 the cost provides 1/2 the quality, I call that a net bargain for such a build.

This isn't exclusively a SQ build either. The goal is a combination of powerful sound and quality. I think some major ground is being covered. If the HU you guys are talking about can do more than any combination of dedicated components can do for the same price, that seems the more reasonable option, but if other aspects can be improved by shifting money to the cheaper components that can do nearly the same thing, that's worth considering too. Exactly which features should I be searching for?

Looking at box designs online, the construction is absolutely simple to anyone with minimal skills and logic. The complexity appears to be in the math. If I have measurements, material, and tools, the construction is just a matter of effort and time. It is amazing what a little labor and time can do, literally saving me tens of thousands of dollars over the years by learning to do things myself and investing the time and effort to do it. Creativity also seems to be a valuable asset, finding ways to do things that others haven't.

If we have ruled out the second sub, and people elsewhere do tend to agree that the 12s in question blow lesser competition out of the water, especially with a good enclosure, then that opens some money to put into other areas and is one less line required. If we don't have to focus solely on SQ, does that change the options any?

not nearly the same thing. 80 prs is the gold standard for anything audio related. Even out of the box music sounds better than any cheap head unit out there. If its too costly, look into buying used you can find them for 150 or so. That clarion crossover does not have adjustable slope, that EQ is junk compared to the 16 band EQ the 80 prs has. So no those components dont even offer anywhere close to HALF of the results you can get with the 80 prs. Basically complete waste of money By today's audio standards.

Again Too many things in the signal line can absolutely hurt overall audio quality. Its best to have minimal processing in the signal line and have a strong original source signal.

Box building is not just math, you have to factor in the subwoofer's electromechanical parameters aka TS parameters. You also have to figure out your vehicle's cabin gain and acoustics. Its not as simple as just doing math. There's subwoofer modeling programs like WINISD which should get you started somewhere. Use torres box calculator for the math. Both are free software to download online.

 

[Hookah]

I just had an idea that I can't find replicated anywhere online, and I know everyone will hate it //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif

It might help with time alignment since that is mainly a correction for speaker placement, and may help other aspects if it doesn't create more issues than it solves...

Each front seat gets it's own personal imaging, with each person having their own left and right channels...

The driver, for example, has a left channel in the outer wall kick panel, and a right channel in the lower center dash console (the console in this car protrudes a good 18 inches from under the dash, creating a little peninsula/wall/barrier to utilize). If you could find just the right angles and balancing, and add any necessary plates or materials to block and reflect sound where needed, would this be a novel idea or a sloppy mess? Are there any examples of this being tested or used?

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

I just had an idea that I can't find replicated anywhere online, and I know everyone will hate it //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif
It might help with time alignment since that is mainly a correction for speaker placement, and may help other aspects if it doesn't create more issues than it solves...

Each front seat gets it's own personal imaging, with each person having their own left and right channels...

The driver, for example, has a left channel in the outer wall kick panel, and a right channel in the lower center dash console (the console in this car protrudes a good 18 inches from under the dash, creating a little peninsula/wall/barrier to utilize). If you could find just the right angles and balancing, and add any necessary plates or materials to block and reflect sound where needed, would this be a novel idea or a sloppy mess? Are there any examples of this being tested or used?

Its a mess. Buddy tried it recently on his explorer It was a sound mess, completely f'd up the soundstage.

Its best to have a head unit to actually control the time alignment and get a phantom center image instead. This is one of the reasons why the head unit is the most important. It does EVERYTHING you wish to achieve and more. No need for these wacky ideas.

Straight up quality drivers in the doors, tweeters in the A pillar/Sail panel on axis and everything properly time aligned and you will get better imaging than you can ever imagine.

Without the 80 prs and you using those crossovers and EQ, you will not have time alignment capabilities which = zero imaging/staging

You can input the distances from each tweeter and midrange into the 80 prs and it will delay the driver closest to you so that every sound wave from each driver reaches your ear at the same time thus creating a proper center stage.

I'd suggest reading up on what actually wins sound quality comps first and use their ideas like a tweeter plus 3 or 4 inch midrange fiberglassed in the A pillar on axis and a 6.5 inch midbass in the door or in the kick on axis(firing at your ear). Proper acoustical treatments aka sealing gaps, proper baffles, sound absorption. These treatments can be cheap to do. Not all Sound quality competition cars are expensive either. There were cars competing with under 400 dollar budget and placed very high as well. However You need proper processing power.

 

[JohnKuthe]

That is excellent information. Thank You.
I am practicing and experimenting with my current setup, a mishmash of speakers and equipment while already modifying the interior as the next step in the car project, enjoying car audio to an unexpected degree. With a bit more help like this over time and a lot more research, I should have all the wrinkles ironed out and be ready to invest in better components for the final setup. It will no doubt evolve almost daily until I am finished.

I can tell you from my limited experience, don't skimp on the sound deadening in your vehicle! It's like acoustically doing very good surface prep before painting a car, VERY important! I Bought a bunch of Damplifier Pro, Luxury Liner Pro, kinda pricey but supposed to be pretty good sound deadening stuff, and IT WORKS!! I also used some cheaper (lower quality) panel deadener called BQuiet. Here's how the front doors on my 2006 Grand Caravan started out:

Yeah, that's where the 6x9 mounts with a BIG hole in the door sheet metal right next to the 6x9 driver!! :-( I decided to block off those two big holes with sheets of thin sheet metal stuck on with 1/16 double sticky foam tape and small self tapping screws to screw it down good:

And before I blocked off the two big holes I had my installer guy stick Damplifier Pro all over inside of the outer door sheet metal. Then I constructed and installed these two big hole blocking panels, then had my installer guy stick BQuiet all over the inside door sheet metal, blocking panels and all so this is what the inside of my car doors look like now!

And they sound fantastically better!!

John Kuthe...

 

[Hookah]

Very nice example!

On the bright side, my car has already been stripped for weight reduction, so that's out of the way.

The bad thing... the car has been stripped for weight reduction, so a lot of work is necessary. I have reupholstered it with lightweight material, but that's really just an aesthetic effect.

I just finished working on some things, like eliminating some rattles and adding panels to some bare bones parts of the car.

I added speakers to the center console just to see what would happen, just some 3 inch Kenwoods that were handy. It actually greatly improved the stage from what I had before. Maybe that just emphasizes how bad it was before or how two average 6.5s simply didn't provide enough sound, but I closed my eyes and the vocals were directly in front of me and the treble was dancing all around me, like they were little stars I could reach out and pick out of the air (a lofty description, I know, but one of my test songs was Chrome Sparks - All There Is, after all).

I also moved the 12" and got a more encompassing bass and set the 8" down to 80 Hz as has been suggested. I think that also helped de-localize the bass.

I found this HU that has TA and a bunch of features for $180 after a rebate...

Sony MEX-XB100BT

Digital Signal Processing features:

ClearAudio+

Time Alignment

DSEE

AAV

Digital High and Low Pass Filters

RBE

CEA-2006 compliant Class-D amplifier

ClearAudio+™ renders incredibly vibrant sound with enhanced bass and crystal clear highs

Not available when using EQ10 or Mega Bass functions

10-band equalizer EQ with +/- 6 dB adjustment

32 Hz, 63 Hz, 125 Hz, 250 Hz, 500 Hz, 1000 Hz, 2000 Hz, 4 kHz, 8 kHz and 16 kHz

Intelligent Mega Bass functionality

Digital Sound Enhancement Engine (DSEE):

Revitalizes and extends the audio frequencies typically lost during the compression process of audio files

Ensures natural sound quality

Power Output:

Peak 4 ohms: 100 watts x 4 channels

RMS (CEA) 4 ohms: 40 watts x 4 channels

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

Very nice example!
On the bright side, my car has already been stripped for weight reduction, so that's out of the way.

The bad thing... the car has been stripped for weight reduction, so a lot of work is necessary. I have reupholstered it with lightweight material, but that's really just an aesthetic effect.

I just finished working on some things, like eliminating some rattles and adding panels to some bare bones parts of the car.

I added speakers to the center console just to see what would happen, just some 3 inch Kenwoods that were handy. It actually greatly improved the stage from what I had before. Maybe that just emphasizes how bad it was before or how two average 6.5s simply didn't provide enough sound, but I closed my eyes and the vocals were directly in front of me and the treble was dancing all around me, like they were little stars I could reach out and pick out of the air (a lofty description, I know, but one of my test songs was Chrome Sparks - All There Is, after all).

I also moved the 12" and got a more encompassing bass and set the 8" down to 80 Hz as has been suggested. I think that also helped de-localize the bass.

I found this HU that has TA and a bunch of features for $180 after a rebate...

Sony MEX-XB100BT

Digital Signal Processing features:

ClearAudio+

Time Alignment

DSEE

AAV

Digital High and Low Pass Filters

RBE

CEA-2006 compliant Class-D amplifier

ClearAudio+™ renders incredibly vibrant sound with enhanced bass and crystal clear highs

Not available when using EQ10 or Mega Bass functions

10-band equalizer EQ with +/- 6 dB adjustment

32 Hz, 63 Hz, 125 Hz, 250 Hz, 500 Hz, 1000 Hz, 2000 Hz, 4 kHz, 8 kHz and 16 kHz

Intelligent Mega Bass functionality

Digital Sound Enhancement Engine (DSEE):

Revitalizes and extends the audio frequencies typically lost during the compression process of audio files

Ensures natural sound quality

Power Output:

Peak 4 ohms: 100 watts x 4 channels

RMS (CEA) 4 ohms: 40 watts x 4 channels

that sony head unit works fine if you use it for components or coaxials, still no active network crossovers nor SLOPE adjustments. Might want to find out what slope adjustment is. Its pretty important. A crossover is not as simple as just a crossover. Your stand alone crossover does not have any slope adjustment. But i'm guessing nothing i say matters since you are gonna do what you want to do anyways. Seems none of the advice on getting proper SQ reaches your ear. Its fine, you are welcome to explore. Just dont be surprised when you hear a properly done system with just a pair of tweets and 6.5s on each side and it blows you away.

 

[Hookah]

that sony head unit works fine if you use it for components or coaxials, still no active network crossovers nor SLOPE adjustments. Might want to find out what slope adjustment is. Its pretty important. A crossover is not as simple as just a crossover. Your stand alone crossover does not have any slope adjustment. But I'm guessing nothing i say matters since you are gonna do what you want to do anyways. Seems none of the advice on getting proper SQ reaches your ear. Its fine, you are welcome to explore. eventually you'll hear a properly done system =]

The hostility is not warranted. I have not mentioned the crossovers since it was pointed out that the HU does a better job. That issue has been closed. I'm not sure why you even mentioned them. The HU I posted has nothing to do with the crossover and equalizer previously mentioned. Reiterating an emphasis on slope as a required feature, however, is very helpful, as the emphasis was previously on TA. I requested a list of such features and am putting effort into making one myself.

I appreciate the great advice you have given here. I have been putting that knowledge to use in my test system and in planning the final system. I have also been confirming the points made by everyone and asking for additional details of those points, and some have been considerate enough to oblige.

If there is any contention at all, it is which features can be sacrificed to boost other aspects, sacrifice being something a lot of people are too privileged to experience.

 

[staan]

it really comes down to if you want to be loud or have sound quality. When you listen to headphones, it gives you an image of what the recording should sound like with 2 distinct left and right channels and the sum non panned part of the mix in the dead center. Its hard to do in a car but can be accomplished. It wont happen with speakers all over the place causing cancellation all over the listening position.

for example:in your description the driver has dedicated right in the center console and left in driver door. the right in the passenger door will be playing the same thing but the waves from the rt center console and passenger door will reach your head at different times causing signal overlap and cancellation.

its best to do as thorough an install as you can with as little drivers as possible if you really are looking for an sq build, it will still be loud but not as fatiguing(and sometimes dangerous) to your ears

this is not saying anything is wrong with a loud install, if that's what you want go as many drivers and as much power as you can.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

Exactly which features should I be searching for?

Look for the head unit that says Pioneer DEH PRS80 on it.

If we don't have to focus solely on SQ, does that change the options any?

Throw all the speakers you have in the front and pretend it sounds good. Still no need in buying 2 subs. If you have the room for 12 and a 10 just buy a single 15, if you have more space buy an 18". There's absolutely no reason you need different size drivers to play a total 60hz or less bandwidth.

Each front seat gets it's own personal imaging, with each person having their own left and right channels...

If you didn't seal the two sides of the cabin completely off from each other that would only be a mess.

I can tell you from my limited experience, don't skimp on the sound deadening in your vehicle! It's like acoustically doing very good surface prep before painting a car, VERY important! I Bought a bunch of Damplifier Pro, Luxury Liner Pro, kinda pricey but supposed to be pretty good sound deadening stuff, and IT WORKS!! I also used some cheaper (lower quality) panel deadener called BQuiet. Here's how the front doors on my 2006 Grand Caravan started out:

Yeah, that's where the 6x9 mounts with a BIG hole in the door sheet metal right next to the 6x9 driver!! :-( I decided to block off those two big holes with sheets of thin sheet metal stuck on with 1/16 double sticky foam tape and small self tapping screws to screw it down good:

And before I blocked off the two big holes I had my installer guy stick Damplifier Pro all over inside of the outer door sheet metal. Then I constructed and installed these two big hole blocking panels, then had my installer guy stick BQuiet all over the inside door sheet metal, blocking panels and all so this is what the inside of my car doors look like now!

And they sound fantastically better!!

John Kuthe...

If OP's entire budget is 500$ I don't think deadener is in the cards. Those doors actually look very nicely done though.

The hostility is not warranted. I have not mentioned the crossovers since it was pointed out that the HU does a better job. That issue has been closed. I'm not sure why you even mentioned them. The HU I posted has nothing to do with the crossover and equalizer previously mentioned. Reiterating an emphasis on slope as a required feature, however, is very helpful, as the emphasis was previously on TA. I requested a list of such features and am putting effort into making one myself.
I appreciate the great advice you have given here. I have been putting that knowledge to use in my test system and in planning the final system. I have also been confirming the points made by everyone and asking for additional details of those points, and some have been considerate enough to oblige.

If there is any contention at all, it is which features can be sacrificed to boost other aspects, sacrifice being something a lot of people are too privileged to experience.

The point was that the crossover BUILT IN to the Pioneer will be more powerful than that you get with the Sony. Seriously, there's a reason everyone is telling you to use that Pioneer.. because it's really a great performer and a tremendous value for how many features you get. You'll need to spend a LOT of money to improve on the processing options you get on board.

There's simply nothing like that Pioneer until you're ready to drop huge money.

If you can deal without EQ then there's plenty of other head units that are a good value. I've had good luck with Jensen, Sony should be decent, and JVC is fine.

 

[ArmyNavyCopGuy]

I was here over a year ago and got some awesome info from some of the guys in this thread and came up with this setup:



Still pounding 1.5 years later.

Can't find the thread unfortunately but yeah. These guys are awesome.

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

The hostility is not warranted. I have not mentioned the crossovers since it was pointed out that the HU does a better job. That issue has been closed. I'm not sure why you even mentioned them. The HU I posted has nothing to do with the crossover and equalizer previously mentioned. Reiterating an emphasis on slope as a required feature, however, is very helpful, as the emphasis was previously on TA. I requested a list of such features and am putting effort into making one myself.
I appreciate the great advice you have given here. I have been putting that knowledge to use in my test system and in planning the final system. I have also been confirming the points made by everyone and asking for additional details of those points, and some have been considerate enough to oblige.

If there is any contention at all, it is which features can be sacrificed to boost other aspects, sacrifice being something a lot of people are too privileged to experience.

its because the sony does not have any crossover features worth mentioning because its not active capable. Reason why the 80 prs is mentioned soo much is because it does everything you need and more and does it best out of every head unit out there minus the 99prs which is 1000+ but thats out of the question. Basically its THE head unit to have if you want great sound.

When presented with the cream of the crop of head units, you start looking at inferior head units that are missing features you'd need in the setup... You are trying to cut corners on the head unit which is the most important part of your sound system its the brain, the head. hence me calling you out. Just letting you know i got my 80 prs used for 140 shipped and the owner before me used it for several years and its still working great for me. Used is always an option bud.

watch this vid, it covers a little bit of what the 80 prs can do. this is network mode, there's standard mode for you to choose from as well if you want a traditional head unit control.

 

[Hookah]

Thanks for the replies //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

I was thinking how I wish that HU didn't have the fancy display or all the smart phone features so it could be cheaper, so I started a feature-based search and found this DSP with selectable slope, phase control per channel, signal delay per channel, 16-band parametric EQ per channel, and 32-bit core for $190....

Cadence DSP 4.8 32 Bit Core / 192kHz Digital Signal Processor

It doesn't seem as convenient, and I'm sure there is a lot I'm missing, but that's called learning //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

Thanks for the replies //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif
I was thinking how I wish that HU didn't have the fancy display or all the smart phone features so it could be cheaper, so I started a feature-based search and found this DSP with selectable slope, phase control per channel, signal delay per channel, 16-band parametric EQ per channel, and 32-bit core for $190....

Cadence DSP 4.8 32 Bit Core / 192kHz Digital Signal Processor

It doesn't seem as convenient, and I'm sure there is a lot I'm missing, but that's called learning //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif

DSPs are fine you'll have to tune on a laptop that has a built in com port and get the software up and running properly. Great results can be had but hours upon hours upon hours of tuning is necessary.

Again i got my 80prs head unit for 140$ used its not that bad.

 

[JohnKuthe]

...

If OP's entire budget is 500$ I don't think deadener is in the cards. Those doors actually look very nicely done though. ...

Thank you!Yeah, they turned out a whole lot better than I thought they might. I basically followed most of the methods of addressing the major flaws to a car door as a speaker enclosure. I mean, even with all the BQuiet stuck on over a lot of little holes but there are still a few so it's not an airtight enclosure, but it''s certainly a LOT better at capturing and attenuating the rear wave off those 6x9s in each door! Exactly what I was looking for!

I should write up a little tutorial on exact what I did. Others may find it useful. And it works and works quite well

John Kuthe...

 

[Boomin_tahoe 5,000+ posts]

You did not deadend those doors yourself. Installer guy did.