Help? Can a 15" sub with the right enclosure handle double-bass metal AND do Hip-hop?

[boostd92]

Hi,

I've started building a modest system for my 95 M3 coupe. The subwoofer I picked is not doing the job and I think I need something bigger/badder. I thought buying a Pioneer sub with a sealed enclosure already around it directly from Pioneer would give me the tightest bass response but I'm not happy with the output. What I have:

Head Unit: Sony GS Series MEXGS810BH CD Car Stereo HD Receiver with Bluetooth, NFC and App Remote

Amplifier: MB Quart OA1100.5 1100-Watt 5-Channel Onyx Series

Subwoofer: PIONEER TSSWX2502 10-Inch Shallow-Mount Pre-Loaded Enclosure Sub Woofer

Rear deck speakers: Polk Audio DB691 6-by-9-Inch 3-Way Speakers

Front door speakers: Stock BMW (had to use audiopipe 3 channel xovers after amp to send signals to separate tweeter and midrange in the door and midbass in the kickpanel). The tweeters and midbass are old (the midbass's are probably shot), and the midrange in the doors are new OEM BMW units.

I didn't do my research on how they would all work together. I'm not too concerned with the interior speakers (for now). The sub just doesn't hit hard even with the level and bass boost all the way up. It's got a lot of things going wrong for it - it's shallow mount and downward firing (into the carpet of the trunk) and it's 4ohm SVC.. my amp is rated for 500w x 1 for the sub channel at 1 or 2 ohm so I'm guessing I'm not getting the power out of it anyway.

What I listen to mostly is Heavy Metal. I love the hard bass drum kick and need a sub that can keep up with fast double bass drum pedals. I want it *tight*.

The hard part is that I also listen to Hip-Hop from time to time. While I was testing the sub I have, it could keep up with the Metal okay but double bass sounded a little muddy (again, I have the amp cranked up to hear it - it doesn't even vibrate my interior mirror). What I really hated was when I put on rap/hip-hop there is a VERY noticeable amount of low low bass that the sub just doesn't reproduce.. below a certain note/hertz I can hear the vibration of the sub trying to do something but no real bass comes out.

I decided that my goals when building the system were too modest and I do want a sub that can crank (if I want it to). I don't want to change my AMP (it's installed upside-down under the rear deck and it would be HELL to remove again).

I want a sub that can reproduce ALL the low bass in rap songs I listen to, but I also want a sub that can react quick enough to do heavy metal duty.

I'm thinking I want a 15" DVC sub since it should be able to go the lowest and I'll put it in the smallest sealed enclosure it would be rated for. This is the one I'm looking at specifically:

Alpine SWR-1522D Type-R 15" subwoofer with dual 2-ohm voice coils at Crutchfield.com

Any suggestions/comments? I was told that if I want that bass drum "pop/snap" that a lot of the preceived "tightness" comes from the mid-bass speakers (the crack-off of the drumstick hitting the drum). I need to replace the 5.25" midbass in the front kick panels, but the stock BMW speaker is very shallow and I don't want to cut up the car. At most, I'll replace them with new OEM units. Would this help?

The sub seemed to get really great reviews everywhere I searched on loudness and crispness... am I going overboard?

Click to read more...

 

[fatboytyler]

I won't of much help on the metal/hip hop part, but let me give you some knowledge. Size of a speaker means nothing when it comes to bass response. An 8" can play as low as an 18", while the 18" can play as high as the 8". It is all about the box. Also, the amp gain is not a volume knob. You are very likely clipping (distorting) the speaker to hell, thus doing major damage. The gain knob is designed to be set to your headunits preout voltage. Bass boost on an amp is also bad because all it does is distort the signal, so anyone on here will tell you to turn it off. As for your stock speakers being very shallow, that isn't a problem. My 6.5 mids aren't even 2" thick and will outperform the majority of speakers you compare it to, especially anything stock. And the price you'd pay for an OEM replacement would be stupid expensive compared to buying quality aftermarket ones.

EDIT: Also, the reason why you don't hear anything after a certain frequency is because of the subsonic filter which I am assuming is a set filter on your amp, meaning you can't change it. This filter prevents the sub from playing below a certain frequency to prevent damage. That pioneer in a tiny sealed enclosure will destroy itself if you play low frequencies (especially if your clipping).

EDIT2: Please, please, please don't buy that sub from Crutchfield for that price.. While it is pretty solid sub, there are so many subs that demolish it in every aspect at that price point.

 

[boostd92]

Well it's not only a response issue I'm having, it's volume as well. I don't get any hard hitting bass in the cabin with the sub I have unless the level and bass boost are cranked up. I'd assume 500w rms should be enough to get some decent bass out of the right speaker. Am I right in assuming I have the wrong impedance speaker to get that sound?

 

[adulbrich 5,000+ posts]

That amp is not powerful enough to do anything really impressive. The sub channel is rated at 500 watts max. The RMS rating would probably be around 200. Realistically with voltage drop and impedance rise, you will see less than 100 daily.

Like stated, size of a driver does not affect frequency response. Box is everything. A quality ported box will be louder than a sealed box, and still remain punchy. Its all in how you tune it. Less port area is less efficient, but tighter. It is also flatter (less peaky). Don't skimp on port area too much, or there will be a "chuffing" sound.

Whatever you do, don't get a new big 15" sub and shove it in a tiny sealed box. "Space makes bass". It will be suffocating, and disappointing.

 

[fatboytyler]

Well it's not only a response issue I'm having, it's volume as well. I don't get any hard hitting bass in the cabin with the sub I have unless the level and bass boost are cranked up. I'd assume 500w rms should be enough to get some decent bass out of the right speaker. Am I right in assuming I have the wrong impedance speaker to get that sound?

500 watt max rating on the sub channel, so 200ish if that RMS won't get any sub loud. Most of what Pioneer has to offer is on the low end of speakers. 500W on the right sub in a properly built box will be quite satisfying to you I'd imagine. The other thing that will make a difference is placement. Is it in your backseat, trunk (seats up or down?), etc...?

To really get into the car audio hobby and do it right it is going to be quite expensive just as a heads up.

 

[boostd92]

The amp is listed to be 500w rms, not max.

 

[fatboytyler]

The amp is listed to be 500w rms, not max.

Everything I am seeing says that its a max rating.

 

[adulbrich 5,000+ posts]

The amp is listed to be 500w rms, not max.

MB Quart OA1000.5 1000W 5-Channel Onyx Series Car Amplifier

Onyx Series 5-Channel Class D Car Amplifier

Channel 1-4 Max Power Rating:

4 ohms: 75 watts x 4 chan.

2 ohms: 150 watts x 4 chan.

Subwoofer Channel Max Power Rating:

4 ohms: 350 watts x 1 chan.

2 ohms: 500 watts x 1 chan.

Max power output: 1000 watts total

Everything I am seeing says that its a max rating.

Same.

 

[boostd92]

MB Quart OA1000.5 1000W 5-Channel Onyx Series Car Amplifier

Computer Parts, Laptops, Electronics, and More - Newegg.com

WoofersEtc.com - OA1100.5 - MB Quart 5 Channel 2200W Max Onyx Series Amplifier

All say rms for specs. Am I missing something?

 

[boostd92]

I just ran to the garage and broke out the manual. In the technical info portion those numbers are clearly listed RMS

 

[adulbrich 5,000+ posts]

MB Quart OA1000.5 1000W 5-Channel Onyx Series Car Amplifier
Computer Parts, Laptops, Electronics, and More - Newegg.com

WoofersEtc.com - OA1100.5 - MB Quart 5 Channel 2200W Max Onyx Series Amplifier

All say rms for specs. Am I missing something?

The first link you have is sonic electronix. It clearly lists the power ratings as MAX.

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

You have everything else going wrong, not the sub size. My 2 18s i just got plays metal cleaner and than all the 10s and 12s in prefabs ive come across. Box tuning, design, acoustical loading and adequate power will determine if your subs will sound good or not. Size is just cone area. Most mainstream subs cut corners and underbuild their subs and you have a different sound signature because of the weaker motor.

 

[Boominburban]

I specifically didn't choose that 5 ch amp because of the weak sub output. I'm running a Kenwood 700.5 PS in my old 91 super cab f150.( and in my daughters volvo) It makes a true 500 rms @ 2ohms on the sub. I run a single 12, in a custom enclosure. I might go from ZZ Top to Pantera to Run DMC to Bass Cows from Hell, and it does it all, and I can make the mirrors drop, ect when I crank it up. As Jeff said, it's in the details. The whole install, front to back ..... it all has to work together. Box design, box design, box design ......

 

[specialnupe]

BOOSTD92,

Man, you aren't getting the bass you desire.... simply because you do NOT have enough power nor the right type of sub/enclosure.

I did all the research your amplifier. its 500 watts MAX @ 2ohms

So you do not have a much power to feed teeth rattling bass.

No diss here... just trying to help you get the most BOOM for the BUCK...without having to replace everything.

Forget about the ALPINE TYPE R 15" you simply do not have enough power with your current amp... to power that sub correctly.

I would recommend a 12" dual voice coil sub that does not require much power. Please put it in a ported box.

Yes, its a KICKER..and the audio snobs will not favor a KICKER. But you do not have enough power to push a Sundown or SSA.

Kicker 10C12D4 12" Dual 4ohm Comp Subwoofer - Sonic Electronix

 

[fatboytyler]

BOOSTD92,

Man, you aren't getting the bass you desire.... simply because you do NOT have enough power nor the right type of sub/enclosure.

I did all the research your amplifier. its 500 watts MAX @ 2ohms

So you do not have a much power to feed teeth rattling bass.

No diss here... just trying to help you get the most BOOM for the BUCK...without having to replace everything.

Forget about the ALPINE TYPE R 15" you simply do not have enough power with your current amp... to power that sub correctly.

I would recommend a 12" dual voice coil sub that does not require much power. Please put it in a ported box.

Yes, its a KICKER..and the audio snobs will not favor a KICKER. But you do not have enough power to push a Sundown or SSA.

Kicker 10C12D4 12" Dual 4ohm Comp Subwoofer - Sonic Electronix

Lmao at the audio snobs comment...

But, he could also save up money, learn a few things and do something that will make him happy the right way.