Too Much Juice?

[MercerIslandBas]

So first off, here's my setup:

1.) Stock 2009 Mercedes E350 4-Matic Sport w/ Harmon Kardon Sound System

2.) Audio Control LC2i Line Level Converter (Pulling signal off stock 10" sub in back deck)

3.) Pioneer GM-D9601 Class D Mono Amplifier (Running at 1 ohm) (150 amp breaker from extra battery to amp)

4.) Orion XTR PRO 12" 122D (2015 Model) dual 2 ohm bridged down to 1 ohm mono (first one fried after 2 months, sent it back to Orion under warranty and they replaced the voice coil - I've had it for 2+ months and it's fried again)

5.) 1.5 cubic foot sealed enclosure w/ 1 cubic foot of poly fiber fill

6.) Extra battery connected to stock battery with 150 amp breaker in between

6.) Interconnects: 12 ga. from sub to terminal, 10 ga. from box to amp, 4 ga. from amp to extra battery, 5 ga. from extra battery to stock battery

So the amp specs indicate it can dish out a max of 2,400 watts at 1 ohm and be 'stable'. The specs on the sub indicates that it can handle 5,000 watts max, nominal 2,500 watts, 1,250 RMS. In theory the amp shouldn't be able to 'blow' the sub, and yet it has twice. I thought maybe it was a bad sub so my co-worker (also a basshead like me) brought his Pioneer Champion 12" TS-W3002D2 sub in a sealed enclosure that he's been running with his Pioneer GM-D8601 (the little brother to my amp) and my amp ran his sub great... for about 2 minutes and then it seized up and the cone wouldn't even move, it crispy fried it in about as much time as it took Mike Tyson to drop McNeely in 1992. But I digress...

My question is, is this amp underrated or are the two dead subs overrated? I just don't get it because the amp shouldn't be able to fry these subs based on the specs the manufacturers are providing. Anyone have any other ideas as to why this might be happening? Money isn't my issue, I'm fine dropping some cash for better subs or whatever, just need to know why I keep blowing subs.

In the past it's always been the amps that fried, but I guess with better technology of the last 20+ years with D-Class amps that's become mostly a thing of the past.

I value your thoughts, feelings, and input on how to solve my issues.

Cheers,

John

P.S. Go Hawks!

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[garychoffmann 10+ year member]

You are clipping so overdriving the amplifier to where it heats up the sub and destroys it. Your signal or gain settings is probably your issue. Could be power delivery or ground. It is set up improperly

 

[MercerIslandBas]

So how do I fix this? Assuming the ground/power delivery are correct?

 

[garychoffmann 10+ year member]

What are your settings now on the lc2i and the amp, turn both gains down a notch. It's really hard to tell you without seeing your settings. You don't happen to have an o scope do you? Not something most people have but people seriously into home and car audio sometimes do. If not I would back the gain down on the lc2i first.

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

go to a reputable shop and let them tune it for you and give you a lesson on it. or google up how to set gains properly. Do more research before you burn more equipment.

Here's a book's worth of information about car audio if you have the time

Basic Car Audio Electronics

 

[MercerIslandBas]

Here's the photos of my setup/settings.

 

[MercerIslandBas]

I did, I had it installed profesionally, and "tuned" professionally. That's why I'm here.

 

[WhiteYota]

I did, I had it installed profesionally, and "tuned" professionally. That's why I'm here.

Do you know how to use a mutimeter?

Set amp gain with multimeter

Just use it to check what your amp is set at now - if it is over 35 volts, the gains are set too high.

edit - just thought of this, if you do have around 35 volts - the loc could be clipping the signal (by the gain being set too high) then the amp (being set lower) is just amplifying a bad clipped signal

 

[adulbrich 5,000+ posts]

You're expecting too much out of what you have, and turning it up too much. The amp starts to clip, which is a complicated situation.

A 1,000 watt amp can blow just about any sub if you send it a square wave.

Also, you're going off "max" ratings, which mean absolutely nothing.

RMS ratings are more useful. However, a 1,500 watt RMS amp does not put out that kind of power all the time. After voltage drop and impedance rise, it will output half that most of the time.

Are you really using 5 gauge between your front and rear batteries? Does your amp get hot when you play your system for a while?

Play some heavy hitting music and see what the rear battery voltage is. If it's dropping to 12's or lower, you need to get larger wire to run front to back.

Also, do you buy your music on itunes or something similar? If you download music for free from sketchy internet sites, there ma be clipping or other distortion already present in the signal, that would cause damage to your system.

 

[Boomin_tahoe 5,000+ posts]

The culprit problem is the line converter from stock headunits.

Not only has this been discussed before but can cause problems almost immediately if not later on down the road if not properly tuned by a pro...and if the pro knows what he's doing.

My suggestion: get rid of 1/2 your car audio, replace the stock hu for an aftermarket one and re install everything you wanna keep. Makes life much easier.

 

[MercerIslandBas]

Easier said than done my friend. I'm pulling off the sub already in the car's stock unit (a DVC unit), so there's a left/right to pull off of. The interconnects in this era Mercedes are fiber optic, so unless I drop $5K to 'replace everything' that's not a viable option. To my knowledge there isn't a way to split/splice/steal a fiber optic signal from the MB head unit and/or HK Amplifier. This is why I went with the sane budget option to add some bass, which is in reality all the existing system is lacking in my opinion. I'm not going to competitions, just want a little extra bump in the trunk. Clearly the shop who 'tuned' it didn't know what they were doing.

 

[MercerIslandBas]

The distance from the stock battery already located in the trunk to the new battery is less than 12". The distance from the additional battery to the amp is less than 36". I'm not going very far. That isn't the issue. I planned this well, and thought I did everything right. Pulling a signal off a stock sub and dumping it into a D-class amp isn't a great idea, hence the LC2i. I think the 'tuning' was/is the issue and there will be some discussion with the installer/tuner.

 

[adulbrich 5,000+ posts]

If you have just the stock wire from alternator to battery, you may need to upgrade that. That's a long run

 

[trumpet 5,000+ posts]

Easier said than done my friend. I'm pulling off the sub already in the car's stock unit (a DVC unit), so there's a left/right to pull off of.

Dual voice coils on a speaker does not mean there is a left and right signal. The sub is getting the same signal on both voice coils.

The shop would do well to give AudioControl a call.

Have you thought about going to a better shop? There's a good one in Bellevue.

 

[n2audio 5,000+ posts]

The culprit problem is the line converter from stock headunits.
Not only has this been discussed before but can cause problems almost immediately if not later on down the road if not properly tuned by a pro...and if the pro knows what he's doing.

My suggestion: get rid of 1/2 your car audio, replace the stock hu for an aftermarket one and re install everything you wanna keep. Makes life much easier.

I don't understand this comment I would like to refute it in an effort to keep OP from undoing something that is not likely causing any problems.

A decent LOC can provide a perfectly clean (high voltage) signal to the amps, and IME is not difficult to install and tune with an acceptable degree of accuracy.

I think the LC2i settings are too high and the Pio amp gain is too high on top of it.

Speaker levels in this car are what -- 30-50w per speaker? If that's at 4 ohms that could be 10+v coming in. I'm not sure how the lc2i deals with high voltage input - apparently it drops it down to nothing and adds is own gain. Even so, if the master dial is relatively linear it looks like it's set in the 6v range with some degree of bass boost.

Hard to tell whether the Pio is set at ~9:30 (~4v) or 3:30 (~1v) -- too high, or way too high, respectively. And the bass settings just complicate the situation.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the install as a whole, I just think the settings are jacked.

With that processor you should be able to get all the gain you need with the amp set at its min (6.5v). If you have to turn the amp gain up at all to get ~35v there's a problem upstream.

One last thing -- I think the 1250w rating on the sub is optimistic. Not saying it "can't handle" that much power, but that you need to be careful with it if you're going to run that much. And the way things are tuned at the moment I think it's getting abused.