169db = heart stop?

[jester73440 10+ year member]

I don't mean vibrate out of your skull but rattle against it. basically like a concussion

 

[Corsica 5,000+ posts]

Got an idea.....Loys when we find bin Laden, why don't we put him in ur car, and crank it..........Blast his ass to death with no protection.

J

 

[awalbert88 10+ year member]

The flaw in your thinking is that humans aren't animals We are.. so if you are sure sound can kill animals, then be sure it can kill humans..

Perhaps I should have been more specific with that. I meant small animals, with inherently weaker body structure and also weaker hearts.

You're saying that the pressure created by the wave would be enough to collapse, or otherwise damage the heart, correct? Well, you also made the comparison to pressure created by a vehicle being parked on your chest. That doesn't depend on any 'frequency', so how about the comparison to underwater pressure, something that is better documented? My understanding is that the lungs collapse first, followed by various body cavities collapsing. Wouldn't the chest be crushed before the heart? After all, the flesh, muscle, bones, lungs, etc absorb some of the pressure before the heart is hit, right?

Just curious.

Got an idea.....Loys when we find bin Laden, why don't we put him in ur car, and crank it..........Blast his ass to death with no protection.

I second the nomination for him as a test candidate! If he lives, we can always just shoot him. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by awalbert88 Perhaps I should have been more specific with that. I meant small animals, with inherently weaker body structure and also weaker hearts.

 

You're saying that the pressure created by the wave would be enough to collapse, or otherwise damage the heart, correct? Well, you also made the comparison to pressure created by a vehicle being parked on your chest. That doesn't depend on any 'frequency', so how about the comparison to underwater pressure, something that is better documented? My understanding is that the lungs collapse first, followed by various body cavities collapsing. Wouldn't the chest be crushed before the heart? After all, the flesh, muscle, bones, lungs, etc absorb some of the pressure before the heart is hit, right?

 

Just curious.

The "standing wave" I'm thinking about doesn't 'crush' anything, it simply applies enough force in an alternating pattern that prevents the heart from being able to expand and contract.. it pulses against the surface in a manner that essentially holds it still.. it stops, it's not damaged or crushed.. That make sense?

The car analogy wasn't to show 'crushing' the heart, but applying pressure preventing expanding and stopping the heart.. As for water, as you go deeper and deeper the weight of the column of water above you is pressing on your body, not unlike the car..

 

[awalbert88 10+ year member]

The "standing wave" I'm thinking about doesn't 'crush' anything, it simply applies enough force in an alternating pattern that prevents the heart from being able to expand and contract.. it pulses against the surface in a manner that essentially holds it still.. it stops, it's not damaged or crushed.. That make sense?

I see what you're saying, but it seems to me that it would take an aweful lot of pressure to do that, more so than sound waves can produce in 1ATM. But isn't the pulsing going to have to be at the same freq as the heart to cause that?

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by awalbert88 I see what you're saying, but it seems to me that it would take an aweful lot of pressure to do that, more so than sound waves can produce in 1ATM. But isn't the pulsing going to have to be at the same freq as the heart to cause that?

The point in general is that at ~ 170 dB you have enough pressure, at the right freq..

And, no.. it doesn't have to be the same as the 'heart rate' to be a physical force preventing the muclses to contract.. that's the idea of the 'resonant freq'.. it causes the tissue to not be able to work.. The definition of frequency is "cycles per second".. and the average heart rate is based on 'beats per minute' and is something like 35 resting.. so 2 Hz (or there about).. if it really is 7 Hz that stops the heart, it's not just countering the rythem of the heart, and if that's what it was, the idea of dying would cause your heart to race and thus would requre the freq to change to match..

 

[denim 5,000+ posts]

I have sat on and leaned up against 169db's and I did have a head ache after a few dbdrag runs

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by denim I have sat on and leaned up against 169db's and I did have a head ache after a few dbdrag runs

Heh //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

The headach could be from your ears working so hard though (basically overload your brain and it starts to 'hurt' after a while.. But, it could also be from your brain being 'vibrated' so hard too.. Though, I've never heard of anyone getting brain dammage from loud music (again, not that it can't happen, just that 'music' doesn't normally have the energy or freqencies to cause serious damage)..

 

[erikvw]

As far as creating enough physical pressure to literally press against the heart (a la a car parked on your chest) I do not believe it is possible considering that all of the flesh in your body (not counting bone) is basically the same density and therefore has the same harmonic so this wave would merely push your entire body. For this to work you would have to be pinned against something or be "chased" by the source.

I'm sure most here know this but db is a physical force measurement of "spl" sound pressure level. And FYI every 10db is a percieved doubling of sound not 3. Think about it, most receivers start around -70 db and go up from there, without doing the math, that's an INSANE volume range (~2^23rd) at 3db per double (at 10db it's 128 times louder at full volume). And standing next to a commercial aircraft on takeoff is about 145db, loudest human belch on record is about 125 I believe.

Radio waves, which can readily kill you (stick your head in a microwave), only affect those things which have the same molecular harmonic as the wave. Water, what our bodies are almost entirely made of (not sure but I know it's > 70%) has a harmonic of about 21 Ghz. This is approx the spectrum microwave ovens work in and the reason why a microwave oven will not heat anything which doesn't contain moisture.

AC current from your wall operates at 60hz, which is the average human heartbeat (60 bpm) and is also why the wall socket in your house is really unhealthy to lick. Your heart beats because of electrical impulses from the brain coming about 1 second apart, the same as the wave from the wall, I think you get the point.

Mind you I don't have enough knowledge to really back this up but here goes. Since the resonance of the heart is a measure of the tone it produces while beating (7hz) then the tone of the incoming sound would not affect it in any way outside of vibrating the crap out of it like any other substance. I don't think freq can kill you and as I said earlier, creating enough pressure to kill you with the force of the air would be nearly impossible unless you were extremely close to the source and the wave was extremely well focused which gets really tough to do at low freq. It would be much easier to create an "air cannon" firing bursts of compressed air than it would be to create the same power with sound. Sorry for this being all over the place but I love a good debate.

P.S. If you sit in a car at above 150db with no ear protection you're downright certifiable, isn't the whole point of a kick ass system to be able to enjoy the music you're playing and not puncture eardrums? I like it loud don't get me wrong but I also wanna hear it loud tomorrow and the day after.

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by erikvw As far as creating enough physical pressure to literally press against the heart (a la a car parked on your chest) I do not believe it is possible considering that all of the flesh in your body (not counting bone) is basically the same density and therefore has the same harmonic so this wave would merely push your entire body. For this to work you would have to be pinned against something or be "chased" by the source.

 

I'm sure most here know this but db is a physical force measurement of "spl" sound pressure level. And FYI every 10db is a percieved doubling of sound not 3. Think about it, most receivers start around -70 db and go up from there, without doing the math, that's an INSANE volume range (~2^23rd) at 3db per double (at 10db it's 128 times louder at full volume). And standing next to a commercial aircraft on takeoff is about 145db, loudest human belch on record is about 125 I believe.

 

Radio waves, which can readily kill you (stick your head in a microwave), only affect those things which have the same molecular harmonic as the wave. Water, what our bodies are almost entirely made of (not sure but I know it's > 70%) has a harmonic of about 21 Ghz. This is approx the spectrum microwave ovens work in and the reason why a microwave oven will not heat anything which doesn't contain moisture.

 

AC current from your wall operates at 60hz, which is the average human heartbeat (60 bpm) and is also why the wall socket in your house is really unhealthy to lick. Your heart beats because of electrical impulses from the brain coming about 1 second apart, the same as the wave from the wall, I think you get the point.

 

Mind you I don't have enough knowledge to really back this up but here goes. Since the resonance of the heart is a measure of the tone it produces while beating (7hz) then the tone of the incoming sound would not affect it in any way outside of vibrating the crap out of it like any other substance. I don't think freq can kill you and as I said earlier, creating enough pressure to kill you with the force of the air would be nearly impossible unless you were extremely close to the source and the wave was extremely well focused which gets really tough to do at low freq. It would be much easier to create an "air cannon" firing bursts of compressed air than it would be to create the same power with sound. Sorry for this being all over the place but I love a good debate.

 

P.S. If you sit in a car at above 150db with no ear protection you're downright certifiable, isn't the whole point of a kick ass system to be able to enjoy the music you're playing and not puncture eardrums? I like it loud don't get me wrong but I also wanna hear it loud tomorrow and the day after.

I'm sorry, but you are wrong about a few things.. First, Hz is cycles per SECOND.. we'll suppose 60 bpm is accruate, that would still be 1 Hz (one beat per second, 60 seconds in a minute).. at 7Hz it would be 420 bpm and you would die...

dB is NOT just a measure of Sound Pressure Level (this I could be mistaken about.. but even if I am, that wouldn't be the only measure of energy of a wave.. as it applies to car audio and what you hear and test it's accurate, but it's not absolute ..) The point being that at (we are guessing but close) ~170 dB there is enough energy for the wave to disrupt the muscle action of your heart.. Keep in mind that "sound waves" pass through things, effecting each thing they touche.. The bass from your speakers don't just hit your back applying "air pressure" and stop there.. if that was the case, you wouldn't hear bass outside your car.. and your doctor wouldn't be able to hear your heart (by the by, the sound from the heart comes from a wave created by full contraction of the muscle, which is NOT the same as the rate it's moving at.. i.e. it's not really 1 Hz of sound, it moves fast enough to create a "sound" more like 50 Hz-ish).. The waves pass through your body depositing energy on stuff as they go.. The theory being that it imparts enough energy against the heart to prevent movement..

Oh, and Microwaves aren't 'radio waves'.. granted, they are all 'waves' but run at different freqs.. And microwaves don't just 'heat water' in things to get them hot, it makes all the molecules move faster (heat is technically moving molecules faster.. slowing them is 'cooling'.. moving them faster is 'heating').. It might have it's greatest effect on water molecules, but I gaurentee you can heat a "perfectly dry" item in a nuker.. So, since all waves kind of do the same things.. float around shedding energy as they go.. why is it hard to concieve of a low freq sound wave of sufficient energy shedding enough on your heart to hold it still and kill you?

EDIT: Oh, and the 60 Hz (cycles per second) from an AC outlet has NOTHING to do with being the deadly part of it (again, the heart is beating, at your estimate, at 1 Hz).. and it's not the 120 volts either.. They human body can stand thousands of volts (for short burst, then the voltage actually starts to cook things //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif ).. it's the ampereage that will kill you.. it takes less than 1/2 ampere to disrupt current running your heart... has NOTHING to do wth the carrier bing AC/DC or the voltage (other than the higher the voltage the easier the ampereage can move through your entire body).. hope that helps..

 

[denim 5,000+ posts]

Originally posted by Savant Heh //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

The headach could be from your ears working so hard though (basically overload your brain and it starts to 'hurt' after a while.. But, it could also be from your brain being 'vibrated' so hard too.. Though, I've never heard of anyone getting brain dammage from loud music (again, not that it can't happen, just that 'music' doesn't normally have the energy or freqencies to cause serious damage)..

well I was there to hold the truck togethor so it wold not explode during SPL burps

 

[erikvw]

Originally posted by Savant I'm sorry, but you are wrong about a few things.. First, Hz is cycles per SECOND.. we'll suppose 60 bpm is accruate, that would still be 1 Hz (one beat per second, 60 seconds in a minute).. at 7Hz it would be 420 bpm and you would die...

It's a harmonic, and the 7hz was in reference to the frequency of the tone produced by the contraction of the heart muscles.

dB is NOT just a measure of Sound Pressure Level

Correct it is the measure of the "power" of a wave, no matter the type. In the case of sound it is a measure of SPL. In radio waves it is a measure of "gain".

(this I could be mistaken about.. but even if I am, that wouldn't be the only measure of energy of a wave.. as it applies to car audio and what you hear and test it's accurate, but it's not absolute ..) The point being that at (we are guessing but close) ~170 dB there is enough energy for the wave to disrupt the muscle action of your heart.. Keep in mind that "sound waves" pass through things, effecting each thing they touche.. The bass from your speakers don't just hit your back applying "air pressure" and stop there.. if that was the case, you wouldn't hear bass outside your car.. and your doctor wouldn't be able to hear your heart (by the by, the sound from the heart comes from a wave created by full contraction of the muscle, which is NOT the same as the rate it's moving at.. i.e. it's not really 1 Hz of sound, it moves fast enough to create a "sound" more like 50 Hz-ish).. The waves pass through your body depositing energy on stuff as they go.. The theory being that it imparts enough energy against the heart to prevent movement..

All I was saying is that if this wave is imparting enough energy on the heart to stop it from beating it is imparting the same force on the rest of the soft tissue in your body.

Oh, and Microwaves aren't 'radio waves'

Look it up //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

http://www.howstuffworks.com/radio.htm

.. granted, they are all 'waves' but run at different freqs.. And microwaves don't just 'heat water' in things to get them hot, it makes all the molecules move faster (heat is technically moving molecules faster.. slowing them is 'cooling'.. moving them faster is 'heating')

Thus a microwave oven excites the molecules of water in an object and "heats" it.

.. It might have it's greatest effect on water molecules, but I gaurentee you can heat a "perfectly dry" item in a nuker..

Try it, put a pyrex glass dish in the microwave and nuke it, empty, it will remain cool due to the fact that *nearly* all moisture has been removed to make it suitable for cooking. Glass not suitable for cooking still has a moisture content which will expand and contract quickly in sudden temperature changes and crack the vessel. Same for "Freeze Dried" food and flour and numerous other "perfectly dry" items. In all truth though nothing I suppose is perfectly dry due to humidity present in the air in the microwave to begin with. Still, try it sometime, let me know how it works out for you. I think you'll be surprised.

A microwave oven uses microwaves to heat food. Microwaves are radio waves. In the case of microwave ovens, the commonly used radio wave frequency is roughly 2,500 megahertz (2.5 gigahertz). Radio waves in this frequency range have an interesting property: they are absorbed by water, fats and sugars. When they are absorbed they are converted directly into atomic motion - heat. Microwaves in this frequency range have another interesting property: they are not absorbed by most plastics, glass or ceramics. Metal reflects microwaves, which is why metal pans do not work well in a microwave oven. (Taken from http://www.howstuffworks.com/microwave.htm)

So, since all waves kind of do the same things

No, sound waves compress atoms physically. (each molecule of air hits the next one and so on for the sound to travel to your ears.)

Radio waves do no such thing. You hear sound waves because they compress your eardrum, nuking your head will not make a noise.

.. float around shedding energy as they go.. why is it hard to concieve of a low freq sound wave of sufficient energy shedding enough on your heart to hold it still and kill you?

This is where I am confused, I see "hold it still" and think physical force. Earlier you said that 170db is snough to "disrupt" the "muscle action" I am not sure that either of these is possible but I am sure it is two different scenarios, the second being the only one worth debating.

... and ...

I think a ducumented case of someone dying from "loudness" would have come up by now. Although maybe it is entirely possible but the only means of creating a noise so deadly is lethal in itself with todays knowledge and thus untestable.

EDIT: Oh, and the 60 Hz (cycles per second) from an AC outlet has NOTHING to do with being the deadly part of it (again, the heart is beating, at your estimate, at 1 Hz)

It's a harmonic and this is straight from the mouth of several electrical engineers.

.. and it's not the 120 volts either.. They human body can stand thousands of volts (for short burst, then the voltage actually starts to cook things //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif ).. it's the ampereage that will kill you.. it takes less than 1/2 ampere to disrupt current running your heart... has NOTHING to do wth the carrier bing AC/DC or the voltage (other than the higher the voltage the easier the ampereage can move through your entire body).. hope that helps..

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif
Never said anything about voltage or amperage, the cycle rate makes the difference in whether you "stick" to an electrical source, the power lines outside will toss you, the wall outlet will not.

I must admit that I know very little of car stereo and stumbled upon this by sheer dumb luck as I want to replace the factory stereo in my car. I just can't pass up a good argument. I did know a kid in high school with like 6 or 10 large subs in the bed of a pickup and the bed joined to the cab by some "cut thru" thing and he made several peoples noses bleed (I'm assuming from the bass).

 

[geonn 10+ year member]

Originally posted by bigbassman the Germans were working on a frequency device that was rumored to be able to kill a man at close distance.. untested though...

 

Hitler also used ultra low frequency to cause the crowd he would be speaking in front of... to become uneasy, and flustered.. and as soon as hitler stepped on stage.. they turned it off, and the crowd translated the feeling of well being return.. directly to the fact hitler had just taken the podium..

 

 

Loyd L.

kick ass

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

First, thanks for providing this info.. you helped straighten a few things out that I was obviously confused on.. specifically that microwave ovens work on the principal of resonanting water specifically.. makes sense.. I guess the heating of stuff that is 'micro safe' that is 'dry' isn't completly dry, just dry enough no to explode? but has enough water to get warm-ish..

Originally posted by erikvw It's a harmonic, and the 7hz was in reference to the frequency of the tone produced by the contraction of the heart muscles.

Now, I'm not sure that the sound from the contraction is only 7 Hz.. Supposedly we can't hear below 20-ish.. but doctors use a stethiscope (sp) to listen to your heart, and I don't believe it changes the sound, just amplifies it.. I could be wrong though..

All I was saying is that if this wave is imparting enough energy on the heart to stop it from beating it is imparting the same force on the rest of the soft tissue in your body.

This would most likely be true.. and if your heart is stopping and you are dying, the effect on the rest of the body is moot //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

-> I said micro not radio

Look it up //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

http://www.howstuffworks.com/radio.htm

 

 

No, sound waves compress atoms physically. (each molecule of air hits the next one and so on for the sound to travel to your ears.)

 

Radio waves do no such thing. You hear sound waves because they compress your eardrum, nuking your head will not make a noise.

 

I guess I was mistaken on the overall classification.. But, all waves are waves and share some common properties, but at various freqs have unique ones as well.. such as light can travel through a vaccume but not solid objects, and sound requires substance to traverse through (you can't create sound in a vaccume -outer space-, but tapping on a wall makes a sound on the other side).. In that context, sound waves 'pass through' you where light wouldn't.. on it's way through you it deposits energy.. That's what I was trying to get at..

(see the attached image, it shows that sound are waves, and that goes all the way up to light... they are all wave forms just at differing frequencies..)

This is where I am confused, I see "hold it still" and think physical force. Earlier you said that 170db is snough to "disrupt" the "muscle action" I am not sure that either of these is possible but I am sure it is two different scenarios, the second being the only one worth debating.

well, again.. I'm not exactly sure of the mechanism that has the direct effect.. is it a resonance thing that causes instability in the tissue? This seems to be more likely since someone said they heard the right frequency (being loud enough) could cause you to become incontinant.. that makes me think the muscle tissue just lets go.. if that happened in your heart.. well...

I can also see that a standing wave could be created that exerts enough force to 'squeez' the heart..

I think a ducumented case of someone dying from "loudness" would have come up by now. Although maybe it is entirely possible but the only means of creating a noise so deadly is lethal in itself with todays knowledge and thus untestable.

 

I'm sure you can find it someplace.. but since it's not something that heppens all that often so you will probabaly have a hard time finding it..

 

It's a harmonic and this is straight from the mouth of several electrical engineers.

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

Never said anything about voltage or amperage, the cycle rate makes the difference in whether you "stick" to an electrical source, the power lines outside will toss you, the wall outlet will not.

 

I must admit that I know very little of car stereo and stumbled upon this by sheer dumb luck as I want to replace the factory stereo in my car. I just can't pass up a good argument. I did know a kid in high school with like 6 or 10 large subs in the bed of a pickup and the bed joined to the cab by some "cut thru" thing and he made several peoples noses bleed (I'm assuming from the bass).

I would think the 60 Hz might disrupt muscle action and prevent you from pulling off the source.. but I doubt is has anything to do with the heart or killing you.. I say this because as soon as you start to undergo damage, your body reacts by increasing adrenalin output which would change the rate of your heart, and seperate it from the 'magic freq'.. not to mention that even though the 'average' BPM may be 60, some may have a resting rate below that, other above that.. Then, you have a situation where you say the 60 would disrupt the heart, but what if you just got done running a mile? and your heart rate was at 110?, does that mean you won't 'die' from the wall until your heart rate came down? na..

Actaully, when I think about it more.. even though you are saying electrical engineers have told you this, I still don't think the freq is what holds.. I think it's more the amperage as it kills you.. over-rides the signals from the brain.. I know I've made my tongue twitch/get stiff by licking a 9v battery, and that would be discharging without any frequency, just dumping into the tissue.. I've never really seen someone die on a powerline outside so I can't say I know if you will get blown back or frozen in place.. All I know is, if you are trying to get someone 'off' the current, you aren't supposed to just grab them and pull/push as you will freeze in place too, you are supposed to try and use inertia to 'knock' them away (dive at them or something)..

Anyway.. we don't really know.. and won't know until either someone can find a document to support it, or we decide to test it //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Crap.. forgot the image..

here it is.. shows how waves go from vlf (very low freq, sound) to light..